Training for failures

Discussion in 'Shooting & Fireams Training / Skills' started by Bcamos, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. Bcamos

    Bcamos Member

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    Does anyone else train for handgun failures? My M&P has literally never organically failed to fire, extract, or load.

    So to train for these scenarios, I have to pick up spent brass and use my imagination. Such as forcing a stovepipe, or forcing a double feed. Of course, this also means that I'm only training for the clearing situation, and not the identification piece. Since clearly I already know what type of failure I've created.

    Has anyone else found a more realistic way to create the types of failures at random? I know dummy rounds are one option, but they can't force a stovepipe or FTE - just a FTF.
     
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  2. Baldcutnut

    Baldcutnut Member

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    I train kind of like you do, my XDS and Walther PPQ just do not have problems so I create them. I have used snap caps to simulate a dud round and load magazines with odd amounts of ammo, mix them up and put one in the gun and one for backup. At least I don't know if I will run out in 2 3 6 8 rounds. I have tried to buy lots of different ammo to see if they will fail and have yet to find that crappy load.
     
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  3. RedEyedHog

    RedEyedHog Moderator Staff Member

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    Talon Defense uses what they call the Paw. ( I think) Great classes if you want to make the drive. Or if you've got a good friend thats willing to harass you while you shoot.

     
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  4. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    @Bcamos , you should load 2 dummy rounds in each mag for every drill you do while training. If you want to, file down the rim on some of the dummy rounds. The extractor will not be able to get any purchase on the dummy round and it won't extract. You won't get a double feed since the dummy round won't cause the slide to go back to pick up the next round but if you do a tap/rack, you'll get one. That's all you need to get you as messed up as possible.

    FWIW, anything other than a tap/rack clearing, I firmly believe should be done either behind cover or when moving to cover. I can dump an entire mag in you and probably reload before you can clear a double feed, so if you're not putting rounds down range, at least don't be out in the open.
     
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  5. Bcamos

    Bcamos Member

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    Genius. I didn't even think of this.
     
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  6. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    Spend 10-15 minutes doing this drill:

    Set-up:
    Have a full mag wherever you keep your reloads.
    Have one round in the chamber, but an empty mag in the gun.
    Gun is holstered under your shirt or however you normally carry. DON'T CHEAT YOURSELF. Carry 100% exactly like you do.

    Drill:
    Fire 2 rounds as quickly as you can hit a 6" circle at 5 yards. Obviously a reload will be included in it.
    Do you scans, holster.
    Switch the mag in the gun with the mag on the ground, tuck the mag with rounds in it wherever you started with it, and you'll be set-up again. Do that for a full mag or two.


    Your times will get better but you will get more comfortable with doing things automatically. Eventually 100% of your focus won't be on getting the mag into the gun. While you're reloading, force yourself to notice what is going on around you. Don't stand flat footed since while you're fixing your gun, you can't compete with the guy sending rounds your way. Start getting used to looking for cover, other threats, etc.
     
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  7. Baldcutnut

    Baldcutnut Member

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    Good stuff Expat !
     
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  8. C99c

    C99c Member

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    The only thing I have to add to what has already been posted is, if possible, don't load the snap caps/dummies yourself.
    Have your wife or someone else do it and tell them to get creative. No matter how many mags I take and how well I mix them up I'm always expecting it when I load my own.

    Even if I'm going shooting by myself I have my wife or daughter load some of my mags for failure.

    Sometimes I'll get one in a mag and sometimes I'll get ten. Occasionally my wife will just dump some or all of them in a kitchen drawer instead of in the mags to screw with me.

    I also have some cheap snap caps mixed in with my good ones that are beaten and broken and will cause oddball failures when I go to eject them so that's an added benefit.
     
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  9. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    Use snap caps to sim double feeds. Practice ripping your mag (I use an old one that's relegated to range duty, but not HD) The one good thing about the Vicker's base plates is you can get a purchase on them to rip them out if the nag jams up in your gun. I like the magpul speed plates for my glocks, not sure how the TTI extension will work, but I have one coming.
     
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  10. Mountainmistwanderer

    Mountainmistwanderer Member

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    I found a guy local to me that was selling 1,500 rounds of 9mm at a really cheap price. Some research showed that these rounds were prone to fail so I snatch them up just for that reason. I do have dummy rounds but ain't nothing better than not really knowing when a failure will happen.
    Search the web for unreliable ammo and buy it.
     
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  11. jdh

    jdh Member

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    On occasion, whatever course of fire Im using, I complete it with one hand only using both sides separately. I usually select a drill (I like some of the stuff on pistoltraining.com) where I start from the holster and also requires at least on mag change.
     
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  12. Baldcutnut

    Baldcutnut Member

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    Best advice you have ever given :D
     
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  13. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    Hopefully it's unreliable because it's UNDER-powered...
     
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  14. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    This is good. Some guys end up cheating even if they don't mean to. If you really want to make it real, put on a boxing glove or hold a tennis ball or handcuff your non-shooting hand to your belt. Something like that.
     
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  15. jdh

    jdh Member

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    I tend to hold my belt behind my back but I like the boxing glove idea
     
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  16. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    I do too. The fact of the matter is that it might be more realistic and even more challenging during training. If you hold your belt or just fold your arm over your chest like many people do, you pretty much realize you're not going to use your hand and it's not there for you for any reason. That option is off the table and you don't think about it. However, if you have a cumbersome glove on, you will have this tendency to continue to try to use the hand. But it won't work the way you want it to. So you enter into the decision making process of trying to use it for maybe some things or just trying to tell yourself it's not good for anything and to simply discard it. In other words, it's a distraction.

    Anytime you can practice with inserting more mental hurdles to jump through, no matter how small, you are conditioning yourself to process thoughts, ideas, and options under stress much faster and much more efficient. Fighting with a debilitated hand while you're trying to get your gun back up may be the wrong thing to do. Maybe just forgetting about it will be the quickest, less distracting thing. Having the option during training may be another distraction messing with your OODA loop and causing your training to be harder. Harder training is generally better than easier training.
     
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  17. Mountainmistwanderer

    Mountainmistwanderer Member

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    Because I have never giving my advice for the best knuckle shuffle technique.
     
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  18. Wisdom

    Wisdom Member

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    I typically shoot Glocks. Therefore, this kind of training is a waste of time.
    Speaking of Talon Defense, the paw or claw, or whatever its called, works great. Its very annoying at first, but by the end of the day, you get used to it. I often wake up in the middle of the night screaming "Tap, Rack"!
     
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  19. Joelski

    Joelski Member

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    Exactly. You have to shoot a 1911, or hella crappy ammo to have failures.
     
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  20. Expat

    Expat Expat™ Knives Staff Member

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    ^I liked this post but im saying it again cause i like it twice
     
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