Bushman5 and Se7eN's combat shovel thread

Discussion in 'DIY (Do It Yourself)' started by Se7eN, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    No, requiring a patent really isn't normal for contracted manufacturing. There are many tools that simply aren't patentable short of an ornamental design patent, and those are pretty much useless. Patents are generally only required when an inventor is trying to sell or license an invention to an established company.
     
  2. The Marsh Gorilla

    The Marsh Gorilla Member

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    Truly looking forward to this! More good tools from good people.
     
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  3. AddictedToSteel

    AddictedToSteel Member

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    I am guessing they are trying to prevent a patent infringement lawsuit. Unless several million of these would get sold, they may think that it might not be worth their while to risk the legal fees.
     
  4. Se7eN

    Se7eN Member

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    Right on the website of the one manufacturer we contacted it clearly stated that before we can submit a concept or idea, we must have a patent in place.

    There is lots of other work to be done also. Proper schematics need to be made, a concept design needs to be built and played with etc.

    It all takes cash out of pocket to do. It will absolutely happen, but it will take time.

    Thanks for everyone's interest and opinions!!!
     
  5. DesertFox

    DesertFox Member

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    (I'm new, so mods please let me know if this is out of line.)

    I'm with FortyTwoBlades that patents are not usually needed for manufacturing of a utility object; my guess is that the manufacturer has been burned with some infringements or C&D and is exercising an abundance of caution.

    May I suggest that perhaps the thing to do is to establish the Canadian equivalent of a limited liability company, set up a business plan, and then start a Kickstarter or similar crowdsourcing funding platform to cover your R&D costs?

    If you know that you have a number of people interested here on the forum, you could look for a small-scale manufacturer OR develop a prototype for ESEE/Rowen to look at and license your intellectual property/design to them for a royalty.
     
  6. Se7eN

    Se7eN Member

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    You're right about the patent, but my post just above yours mentioned that it was specific to that certain manufacturer we were dealing with.

    Your ideas about kickstarter are on the money. Likely, that is what we are going to do. As far as the business plan goes, we have been working together to make that happen. Part of that plan will be a registered company.

    As far as ESEE and Rowen are concerned, you never know what could happen, but we know that this product definitely doesn't appeal to the masses and I'm sure that if the ESEE/Rowen team were interested, they would let us know. ( for the record they are not interested LOL)

    We are going to have fun with this though.

    Thank you for your suggestions and comments,@DesertFox.
     
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  7. DesertFox

    DesertFox Member

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    I'm sorry I missed the post above. If you are going to set up a company, may I respectfully suggest:

    1) Set up a registered company to own the intellectual property rights (e.g. design) and always hold it as a small business (e.g. no stocks whatsoever)
    2) Set up a registered company to licence the IP rights from your first company, which will handle manufacturing. This should be publicly held to gain capital.

    This will allow you to insulate the IP rights in case your manufacturing company goes bankrupt, gets sued, etc.

    Secondly, it would allow you to sell the manufacturing concern and still have residual income from the IP rights.

    Third, it would insulate you from hostile takeovers if your shareholders ever tried to oust you.

    Designing a business is worth the same effort as designing a product. I would highly recommend that you engage a lawyer/solicitor in Canada to help you with these things.
     
  8. Se7eN

    Se7eN Member

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    10-4.

    You have some experience with business I see! Thanks for taking the time to write that. It's certainly not just as simple as one would tend to think.

    Thanks again for your advice and suggestions!
     
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  9. DesertFox

    DesertFox Member

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    Glad to be of some use. I wish I could be more help with the designing of the shovel rather than constructing a business but I think you are on to something and should protect it. Ideally, when you get beyond the raw brainstorming phase you should contact some of the members and ask them to sign a non-disclosure agreement, an agreement that allows you to use their ideas without future royalties, and develop some sort of Google Hangout for people that have signed NDA and no-royalty agreements have access to so the general public can't steal all your plans and ideas (or some disgruntled forum person trying to claim you are actually using their ideas and taking you to court, doing a C&D, etc.). If I can offer more suggestions like that, please let me know.
     
  10. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    issue with all that up here is

    A) horrendous legal and filing fees.
    B) horrendous tax nightmare
    C) more fees.

    Its literally like $5000 at the bare bones minimum to start a LLC, and the costs only go up from there.

    now add in the fact that one partner is in BC, and the other partner is in Alberta.........more red tape......lol

    we think Jeff or the guys at Tops should buy our design and give us the first two production models, and a small royalty....lol
     
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  11. AddictedToSteel

    AddictedToSteel Member

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    Kickstarter?

    Sorry, just saw that @DesertFox already said this.
     
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  12. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    most likely..... (kickstarter).

    it amazes me some of the sheer CRAP on there.......and yet people are getting $75,000 to $100,000

    we're gonna go slow.....make some prototypes, mod some existing gear, play with it....and then get into the heavy stuff. The tough part right now is both @Se7eN and I live quite far apart in locations, despite him being next door province wise.....BC and Alberta are HUGE.....so its going to involve a lot of shipping back and forth with preliminary designs. @Se7eN ships me a prototype, i play with with and write down what i like, what i don;t like, and throw in suggestions and then parcel it back to him and he does the same. Canada Post aint cheap....

    we've already simplified some parts of the design, to save some initial blanks costs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  13. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Moderator Staff Member

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    Odd that it would cost that much to start an LLC but the laws in Canada are certainly different than in the US. I think when I started my business it was only a $75 fee and filled out all the paperwork myself. You probably have a small business administration in your area that would help you sort out what you'd have to do.
     
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  14. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    oh i could easily get help from the family, its just that BC is all about the fees.......lots of fees......

    not sure about Alberta (where @Se7eN is)

    my only issue with kickstarter is you cannot keep the money you get......if your project fails.......its payback the donors

    whereas GoFUNDME you keep all the donations.......even if the project fails.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  15. Se7eN

    Se7eN Member

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    My dad was a business owner at one point. I'm going to find out some specific costs and we'll go from there. I need to get my a$$ in gear and get you the first prototype. Work has been demanding lately, but I have this weekend off, so I will get some sh*t done.

    I agree B5, it really is too bad that we are not closer geographically. Come to think of it, that would be a non stop fatwood raiding party full of ice cold reebs, sharp knives and sharp shovels. LOL.


    I need to send you some final drawings for the tool so we can confirm exact sizing.. Stay tuned brother.
     
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  16. DesertFox

    DesertFox Member

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    Those are common (and untrue) arguments small business owners use to convince themselves (at least in the States) to run a business as a sole proprietorship instead of an LLC, which is really far more trouble than incorporating would be; I suggest not writing it off without a little more research.

    There is some useful discussion of taxation issues at https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/incorporate.htm, and I would argue that the protection from liability is a distinct advantage.

    I found the Service Alberta website to be quite helpful at http://www.servicealberta.com/712.cfm#how coupled with
    the fee structure found at http://www.servicealberta.com/pdf/Product_Catalogue.pdf at Page 12.

    In Alberta, it may be worthwhile to consult with BusinessLink at http://businesslink.ca/service-provider-directory to get some help from small business advisors or other entrepreneurs who have gone through the process.

    BC also has a helpful website at https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...rating-bc-company/incorporate-limited-company coupled with a fee structure site found at https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...ncorporated-companies/fees-corporate-registry.

    Perhaps those would be worth looking into?
     
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  17. DesertFox

    DesertFox Member

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    @FortyTwoBlades Good thoughts, led me to some quick research based on what the Canadian equivalent of a state Secretary of State's office would do for incorporation.
     
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  18. DesertFox

    DesertFox Member

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    Product liability suits from crap products are a huge reason to insulate your intellectual property rights on the design (as well as your own stuff) with a two-company approach.

    Example:
    You make a great design.
    Manufacturer has a defect.
    Customer is injured.
    You are sued.

    Without incorporation, the customer can attach all your company assets AND personal assets

    With incorporation as one business, the customer can attach all your company assets (including your design, logos, trade dress, names, etc.) but your personal assets are exempt from attachment.

    With incorporation as two business, the customer can attach the manufacturing company assets (which are zero) but you gain the following benefits: (1) all your equipment etc. is protected from liability because manufacturing company leases from holding company, (2) all your designs, logo, trade dress names, etc. are protected because manufacturing company licenses those IP rights, and; (3) your personal assets are exempt from attachment.

    The next time you go to a fast food restaurant in Canada or the States, look at the copyright marks/logos. You may notice "Brand Holding, LLC" (e.g. Subway IP Holding LLC), which follows the model above because customers who sue you for product injuries can't attach the very valuable recipes and other intellectual property rights. They get to sue a worthless shell company that only has the non-exclusive right to license the IP and trade dress; it can be replaced overnight with a new company and have the exact same lease and go on despite a catastrophic suit.
     
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  19. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    oh i get that 110% ......well versed in the whole strawman company concept......isolate the live Person from the LLC strawman fictional person...

    its just gonna take some coin....
     
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  20. Bushman5

    Bushman5 Member

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    yep, good links...but as a person who has dealt with the BC gooberment on more than one occasion.......its a nightmare.
     
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