Big changes coming to ESEE Knives

Discussion in 'ESEE® Knives and Gear' started by shaneadams90, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. ESEE-Fan

    ESEE-Fan Member

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    @Jeff Randall I have ZERO interest in s35v, but after watching the video that Patrick made would just hardening the edge make it less prone to breaking?
     
  2. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Not they way it works with that steel. The issue with this S35V hype is all about heat treat and properly applying the steel to the right blade. IMO, we should have never done an ESEE-3 in this steel, especially with the jimping stress risers on the spine and everyone knowing us for tough outdoor knives made to use and abuse. This steel fits fine in the Xancudo and smaller blades, but not the ESEE-3. Others have used it in larger blades but they are not running the optimal hardness in an attempt to get more toughness. Why would we do that? If you're gonna use a steel then achieve the optimal hardness for that steel and let the chips fall where they may. If you're going to back off and try to create more flexibility then simply go with a different steel. No sense paying a load of money for a particular steel and not get the full performance out of that steel. Bottom line is we screwed up making an ESEE-3 in that steel since so many people are use to abusing ESEE-3 knives.
     
  3. Strigidae

    Strigidae Administrator Staff Member

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    I want it to butcher deer. No way ill have to worry about the edge when dis-articulating joints etc.
     
  4. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Cheese slicer
     
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  5. Strigidae

    Strigidae Administrator Staff Member

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    Never seen a deer made of cheese but if i did id shoot it too. Thats where the jalapeno and cheese deer sausage must come from!!!
     
  6. mtngoat

    mtngoat Member

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    If you find one of them cheese deer I’ll cook it whole at the farm for all to try.
     
  7. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Deep fried is the way I want it.
     
  8. Frigin

    Frigin Member

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    Hahahah I love your honesty and this is why I buy esee
    I’m just excited to use the xancudo!
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  9. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Thanks for the comments. I may have been a little harsh in my judgement since Strig is saying it will do well on Cheese Deer.
     
  10. Frigin

    Frigin Member

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    Now I’m hungry
     
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  11. FAL'ER

    FAL'ER Member

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    The "Cheese Deer Knife"!
     
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  12. Sam Wilson

    Sam Wilson Member

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    This doesn't seem like that big of a deal. A small stainless knife at a higher hardness broke under admittedly abusive batonning through hard knotty wood. Seems like an expected/normal outcome. Doesn't make the knife or steel crap.

    A couple of different thoughts come to mind, was this test a sample size of one? If so, that one knife may have just been the most defective knife in the whole batch. Did the carbon steel version get the exact same treatment in the exact same piece of wood? What was the outcome?

    It seems like you have bad feelings toward this steel, which is totally your business. But it could also have been run at 58-59 for a little more durability and still smoked the pants off of 1095 for edge retention. This video doesn't really answer or prove anything definitively, especially with the actual testing not being shown.

    I wouldn't argue a loss in toughness, but is it as dramatic as it's being made out to be under the actual conditions the knife will be used in regularly? That's where more standardized tests will give a clearer answer.

    Also, I appreciate the honesty and posting a failure. Materials failure isn't a character failure.

    Sam
     
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  13. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Correct.

    What would be scary is if this blade we broke was the best one out of the batch and not the worst. Not going to argue heat treat with you but the optimal heat treat on S35V is 59-60. We could do like other manufacturers and take it under that to add some toughness but then again we could go with a different, less costly steel at those heat treat numbers and effectively have the same thing. I think the steel is great in smaller knives when run at optimal hardness. Worthless in larger knives.

    Again, not trying to start a debate, but that's just the way I see it from using this steel from various manufacturers for a while. It's over-hyped and over-priced.
     
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  14. Sam Wilson

    Sam Wilson Member

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    Then it sounds like more testing is in order, and something more accurate than just beating it in a log in the woods, though that can certainly be valuable. I’m not a big player like ESEE, but I typically do a sample size of at least three, and wish I could do more.

    Jeff, I certainly don’t want to argue with you. I’m pointing out some observations. My primary point is that I don’t see the value of this “test” video. This is the same type of thing that invalidated a lot of what Cliff Stamp did. A sample size of one doesn’t show much.

    Last point, how did you determine the optimal hardness for 1095? It can be heat treated a lot harder than you guys run it, but would run into durability issues. Was it strictly for edge retention, or a good blend of edge retention and toughness? Similar could be done with the S35. Just because a data sheet says a number/hardness is optimal doesn’t mean it’s the best for your application.

    Regardless, glad that some testing/discourse is being engaged in.

    Sam
     
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  15. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Our 1095 is a compromise, as we have always noted but the cost per pound is about 15 times cheaper than S35V. If we're known for an outdoor knife that will take abuse, then doing an ESEE-3 in S35V at optimal hardness was stupid.
     
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  16. Sam Wilson

    Sam Wilson Member

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    I understand why you’re not addressing my points and that is totally your right, not a problem. I hope you guys get what you’re after, and best of luck. Thanks for sharing.

    Very respectfully,

    Sam
     
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  17. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    Not sure what points I didn't address?
     
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  18. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    I thought this answer would address your points. We chose a compromise heat treat between toughness and edge holding in a simple carbon steel. My point is S35V does not justify the added cost in a big knife especially if you have to back off on the heat treat to get it to take abuse.

    As far as your question about test lot sample size, I think it's logical that anyone would agree with your statement so I saw no reason to address that.
     
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  19. Sam Wilson

    Sam Wilson Member

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    I appreciate the dialog back and forth, I wasn't trying to imply anything. My primary point is that if that video represents the totality of your testing, any conclusions drawn from it (regarding bigger knives, optimal hardness, etc.) don't carry a lot of weight. Logically, more and accurate, repeatable testing would be required to draw some solid conclusions.

    We obviously disagree on the "optimal hardness" point, since I believe you probably have the 1095 at optimal hardness for your application. I would say do the same to the S35. Bring it down a point or two, lose a little edge retention but gain a good bit of toughness. Optimal is relative to the task/application. I don't understand why you won't deviate from the 59-60. Also, is the S35 cryogenically treated?

    I have done tests that are abusive to CPM 154 (similar steel) at an edge likely MUCH thinner than your factory edge and had phenomenal results. Those are some of the reasons I don't understand your disdain for the steel. It's more expensive, yes. Add cost to product. If it doesn't sell, drop it, or some compromise is in order.
     
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  20. Jeff Randall

    Jeff Randall ESEE Knives / Randall's Adventure & Training Staff Member

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    I think your last sentence summed up our approach really well, except for the compromise part. If it doesn't sell, we will drop it from the line, but we refuse to pay the prices per pound that we are paying for S35V and cheapen the performance of edge retention by lowering the heat treat. If we're going to do that, then I go back to my original point of we can do it cheaper than S35V costs by using other steels. We will keep S35V at 59-60 on the Xancudo and possibly do the Izula with it and maybe the Ashley Game Knife, since those knives are not going to see the abuse that the rest of our line will.
     

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